What Optic Mel?

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This topic contains 234 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  kansas 1 month ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 176 through 200 (of 235 total)
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  • #14287

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    OK Wigman …should I contact you after I settle and zero with the round and load of my choice?

    #14288

    Anonymous

    Is this a dental surgery forum !!?? Darn! I’m in the wrong place !!! πŸ˜€

    #14289

    Anonymous

    OK Wigman …should I contact you after I settle and zero with the round and load of my choice?

    I’ll be here, before and after … good luck! Make sure the MSv3 is on there good and tight … and check it with the metal stick !! RTFM !!
    (Read The Fancy Manual)

    #14290

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    I will try to become familiar with “shooter” a bit

    #14291

    Anonymous

    We can always fix shooter later … it doesn’t directly affect the gun, ammo, scope, etc.

    Get scope setup, get zeroed, get MV and SD, get Height above bore. Then we can setup shooter.

    #14297

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    Ok ..this may take a while since I have to chose a perfected hand load, test it , then get MV…I work full time , I take care of a dental property MYSELF…..much ALWAYS going on with me…no to be a whiner…just factual

    #14353

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    Hey Wigman…just to let you know I am still perfecting a round…down to .5 grains now…I have the shooter app ready…will be taking MV soon..will have humidity and temp on day of measuring MV…any comments on msV3???…how do I get SD???….dr kevorkian JR

    #14354

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    BTW height above bore= 2 and 4/16..or 2.25 inches….in your opinion is the barrel of precision rifles set in the stock at 1/2 barrel height?

    #14374

    kansas
    Participant

    … any comments on msV3???…how do I get SD? …

    Comments on MSv3 ? I love it !!

    How to get SD ? After you shoot two rounds with the MSV3 the SD will appear in the lower right of the display. It will update after each shot as will the average which will appear right above the SD.

    … .in your opinion is the barrel of precision rifles set in the stock at 1/2 barrel height ..

    I am not familiar with the definition of the term “precision rifle(s)” … if you mean “bolt gun” ?

    I’d say there are a wide range of answers. But 2.25 inches sounds like a plausible number for the height above bore … let’s go with that for now !

    ==
    Oh and BTW, something happened to the olde wigwamitus … so now I am “kansas” … my new self !!

    πŸ˜€

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by  kansas.
    #14376

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    OK KANSAS…yes I mean bolt gun…and in my experience there are bolt guns and then there are precision rifles; if you wish , precision bolt gun rifles. I would not put a Night- Force 2 to 3 thousand dollar scope on a 7mm mag that I bought from Cabelas if that helps with my terms in the way I view rifles….thx…a bit more info gathering to go…dr mike

    #14377

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    I have a 7mm mag bolt gun and I have a PRECISION 7mm mag bolt rifle,,,the latter BUILT to be significantly more accurate with the proper skills

    #14378

    kansas
    Participant

    Ok so “bolt guns” … and “bolt guns that aren’t bent” … got it !!! ;D

    ==

    .300WM(24) bolt gun, that isn’t bent
    REM700 LA action, Criterion Barrel, McRee Chassis, Atlas bipod, Griffin Suppressor, Farrell Manufacturing Scope base, Spuhr mount, Burris xtr2 5-25x scr-mil scope.
    ==

    7.62(22) bolt gun, that isn’t bent
    Took several months to get all the parts …

    … took 10m to put it together …

    There’s that NF scope you were talking about !!

    #14389

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    OK KANSAS…interesting…”bent”…I was not FAMILIAR WITH THAT ONE!!!….is that what in the know shooters call factory or non-precision rifles???…or is this a state of Kansas term??..dr.m

    #14390

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    By the way..I notice you have many suppressors … are they worth the money and the hassle?

    #14391

    kansas
    Participant

    Suppressors … oh my ..4-5 years ago … I asked 50 people …
    “what are the benefits of suppressors?”
    I was completely underwhelmed with the responses … which mostly boiled down to “try it, you will love it!”

    ==
    Well, having tried it a lot … for the past 3.5 years … I can say I do not “love it” … but I think I can explain at least some of the trade-offs.

    ==
    01 – CON – Price … well obviously, the first con is that suppressors cost greater than zero dollars. Start with the $200 tax stamp. Suppressors cost roughly between $400 and $2,000 … though there are a few outside that range … on average .. including the tax stamp … I’d say my suppressors cost $1,000.

    02 – CON – Length … another obvious down side is that suppressors add greater than zero inches to the length of the rifle. My suppressors add from about 6 inches up to about 15 inches though the average is about 9 inches.

    Digression – Noise Reduction Near the shooter.
    Noise from rifles comes from three sources
    (a) Release of gasses out of the muzzle after the bullet leaves the muzzle. The suppressor helps reduce the sound from this source
    (b) Supersonic “Crack”. As the bullet flies down range … a cone of sound emanates in all directions from the bullet path … as long as the bullet is supersonic. The suppressor does not reduce this sound.
    (c) Cycling of the Action. For a self-reloading-rifle (SLR) the action moves and makes sound as the bullet moves downrange with loading a new round. The suppressor does not help reduce this sound.

    The suppressor can reduce sound from one of the three sources. The affects of this reduction depend greatly on the location of the listener.
    For the shooter, who is near, but behind the gun, the affects on reduction of sound from source 01 are significant. For a listener, 800yds down range … the effects are hardly noticable. This listener primary hears the “crack” of the supersonic bullet as it passes by them.
    So the farther away from the gun … and the farther forward of the gun line the listener is, the less the listener notices the sound reduction.
    ==
    So, the suppressor can help reduce 1 of the 3 sources of sound. What is good about that?

    04 – PRO – reduction of rifle “boom”
    The shooter definitely notices a reduction of “boom” and this allows the shooter to wear less (or no) hearing protection (I wear none).
    05 – PRO – Improve accuracy … by helping with flinch management
    We all flinch when exposed to loud noises … many of us may deny it … but I spent 4 years in the artillery, 7 years in a rock n roll band … and a year as a security guard positioned a half mile behind a drag strip that routinely had rocket cars on it. I can say rocket cars are MUCH louder than everything else I’ve ever heard combined.
    Constant exposure to loud noises .. especially loud noises of short duration will build muscle memory of “flinch” … this can be mitigated … but requires as much or more effort at mitigation than the amount of high powered rounds we fire. I use dummy rounds mixed in with live fire rounds as part of a live fire / dry fire dot drill program to mitigate. Basically I try to train my muscle memory (really fat memory) that all shots are dry fires. It actually works, if you do it a lot.
    So, suppressors can help retard the growth of flinch … or more nicely put … “anticipation” … which can be so tiny, you don’t notice it .. until you start shooting sub moa dot drills πŸ™‚
    Suppressors can help improve accuracy … by helping the shooter manage flinch.

    06 – PRO – More followup shots when hunting
    Critters that are more than about 50yds away … and fairly near the bullet path … will hear the sound of the bullet going past … not the more muffled sound of the gasses leaving the rifle. So the critters not hit by the first shot, will not know where that shot came from … and will react in a more random fashion to the shot, thus allowing more follow up shots. This even applies to critters that shoot back. The critters that shoot back will know less about where the shot came from and act accordingly, thus offering additional follow up shots.
    This is perhaps the primary advantage of suppressors. But, if you do not hunt with suppressors, this is of no advantage what so ever.

    07 – CON – SLR rifle “blow back” gets in your eye.
    Over the years I noticed soot from the blow back of SLRs (and the rare suppressed auto pistol I have fired as well) get in my aiming eye. So I have started wearing eye pro when firing suppressed stoners.

    08 – CON – Recoil increase
    I would say this is only noticeable with the .50BMG rifle … but with that rifle the recoil is detectably greater with the muzzle break removed and the suppressor added, versus with the muzzle break on there and no suppressor. Of course the NOISE … is considerably louder … as heard by the shooter.

    09 – CON – POI shift.
    I do not shoot my rifles both suppressed and unsuppressed so this is not an issue for me. But there is a POI shift when adding and removing a suppressor. The key is for this to be repeatable. So If you know you are .2 mils high with the suppressor, then you can hold that.
    The only case this might matter for me, is if I removed the suppressor for moving with a rifle and did not have time to put it back on before firing. But that has not happened yet and I have not trained for that yet. So an edge case that is being ignored for now.

    ==
    That’s about all I can think of off the top of my head … I’m sure there are more, but I hope I’ve remembered the major ones.

    Net/Net … I rarely fire an unsuppressed rifle and when I do, it is almost always part of some sort of testing I am doing. WIth the carbines (a.k.a. SBRs) I have some set up as day guns (with the suppressors off) and some setup as night guns (with the suppressors on) … but again, I do not add or remove the suppressors except when cleaning or reconfiguring the carbines for new purposes.

    So I do believe they are worth the money and the hassle. I have 7 suppressors.
    3×5.56
    3×7.62
    1x.50BMG

    4 of the 7 are direct thread.
    2 of the 7.62s have converters that allow them to be used on the 5.56s

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  kansas.
    #14394

    mele-02
    Keymaster

    @kansas
    That is a pretty good summary of the pro’s and con’s. I did want to comment on one of your questions/points

    The suppressor can reduce sound from one of the three sources. The affects of this reduction depend greatly on the location of the listener.
    For the shooter, who is near, but behind the gun, the affects on reduction of sound from source 01 are significant. For a listener, 800yds down range … the effects are hardly noticable. This listener primary hears the β€œcrack” of the supersonic bullet as it passes by them.
    So the farther away from the gun … and the farther forward of the gun line the listener is, the less the listener notices the sound reduction.

    You then followed up questioning what good is that when it only reduces the “boom”. For sniping reasons, it is VERY important. While someone at the target area does still hear the crack from the supersonic round, it is extremely difficult to find an accurate bearing of where that round came from based solely on the crack. But when that crack is followed by the BOOM from the rifle, it makes it much easier to determine the general location of where the sniper fired from. So by eliminating (or nearly eliminating) the report of the rifle (the BOOM), it goes a long way to self preservation in the sniping world. I was trained and operated before the suppressor craze, and I can say that utilizing a suppressor is a very valuable asset when in combat zones

    MEL

    #14401

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    OK so you guys are not “even blinking when it comes to EXTRA length, EXTRA weight, and then what about transporting these things legally rapped up???

    #14403

    kansas
    Participant

    … transporting these things legally rapped up ..

    Not sure what that means.

    Suppressors are legal in Kansas and adjacent states (MO, NE, OK, AR) and Texas and South Dakota … at least for the places I’ve been with them. No special handling required.

    #14404

    kansas
    Participant

    My primary pack contains a pouch and in that pouch is a double zip lock and in that double zip lock are copies of my NFA paperwork. My Trust and all Form 4s and Form 1s. That way, no matter what I have with me … I have EVERYTHING in that pouch.
    If I am taking carbine (a.k.a. SBR) across state lines … I get Form 20s signed by ATF .. I usually even include the suppressors on the form 20s. That is not required … but it does not hurt, if I am sending in the form 20 anyway. I allow 45 day lead time. That means I need to nail down any out of state adventures at least 45 days ahead of time. But I know how to plan, so I can do that.
    But, really once you are used to it … the ATF processes are not a pain … not much different than going to the dentist !!!
    (which I have to do tomorrow πŸ™‚ )

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  kansas.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  kansas.
    #14407

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    I AM GLAD you are seeing your dentist..what I mean is ..you might as well heave your custom case out..you cannot just drive around in your car with an uncased rifle everywhere…when you are hiking around in the field you have more weight and especially extra length to hall thru stuff..and what about a drag bag…do they accommodate suppressor length rifles…this is what is meant by dr mike

    #14408

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    I have at least ten cases”high quality…NONE would take a rifle an extra nine inches long

    #14409

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    with all due respect to you dudes BTW

    #14410

    kansas
    Participant

    I have 5 pelicans and 5 rifles … in some situations I have to remove the suppressor to put it in the case and add the suppressor back on when taking out. Not a big deal … part of the drill. I carve a little spot for the suppressor in the foam.

    My rifles are pretty heavy … depending on what all is on them … running about 14 to 22 pounds … not including the .50BMG …it runs about 30 pounds …

    Rifle, scope base, scope, nv mounts, suppressor, bipod, rings coax/lrf mounts lrfs … ammo mags … all adds up .. the suppressor is part of the total.

    My carbines run around 10 pounds … but the rifles avg around 17 pounds. I run the rifles off tripods. The tripods go in carry bags and MOLLE to the load bearing rig. I practice night and day walks with the gear .. setting up and taking down etc. it all works …

    I wasn’t sold on suppressors for a while … but when I started hunting in teams … and everyone else had a suppressor … I got the hint and got with the program.

    And I’ve never looked back.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  kansas.
    #14412

    Michael Mecikalski
    Participant

    OK so this “taking off and putting back on” is expected with this equipment and is no hassle as far as messing up precise accuracy then???

    #14413

    kansas
    Participant

    Well, you have to decide what your priorities are.

    If you want every shot to be 0.25 MOA or better … you will have to figure out how to do that … and maybe removing and adding suppressors aren’t part of that …

    My priorities are probably different. Observing and moving (stealthily) are at least 2/3rds of my priority. Hitting what I am aiming at is at most 1/3 …
    The targets I aim at … rats at 50yds and under … rats are 2 inch targets … so they are 4 moa targets (for standing unsupported shooting) … Opossum and Coons under 100yds (standing unsupported … way over 4 moa targets … Yotes out to 300yds … about 3 MOA targets worst case.

    12 inch steel out to 750yds … 1.6 MOA … not too tough.

    So, I’m not (yet) trying to be a 0.25 MOA shooter … so I can carry my rifles around without worrying about “”precise accuracy” … since that is not a priority for me.
    πŸ™‚

    That said, one of the attributes of suppressors is “repeatability” … and that means … after putting on and taking off it hits close to where it did the time before. Spend more on your suppressors and you will get more of this “repeatability” …

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  kansas.

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