I'll say what everybody is thinking:
This web site is incomplete without an OT forum.
dom _________________ "A rifle is like a human. The stock is the skeleton, the scope is the eyes, the action is the brain, and the barrel is the heart.
But you, the man behind the rifle, you are the soul."
I'll say what everybody is thinking:
This web site is incomplete without an OT forum.
This web site is perfectly complete without an OT forum. This is a sniping and precision shooting forum.
As you may recall hypno, since you were around back then, that the OT forum was, at least in part, created to house all my threads. Thinking back, you'll recall that I used to do weekly gun news, post information on legislation, write articles on fundamental rights, as well as my many articles regarding preparedness. I didn't do this occasionally, I did it each week.
These threads became so popular that there was a movement to create a section for them; at the time I was posting in "Misc." or "SOP" (I don't recall which) since there wasn't any other place for them. Some people even suggested creating a forum called "Recoil's Corner" or some such personal names like that. But with the increased traffic here that wasn't specifically sniping and precision rifle related, Mel apprehensively relented and gave us the Off-Topic forum, provisionally.
You all have violated those provisions by allowing OT to degrade into a cess pool of stupidity. You may argue and you may gripe, but that the mods were constantly deleting and censoring threads there is all the proof you and they need.
Now, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that the decline in OT had anything to do with my departure. However, ever since I quit posting all the topics like I used to, and eventually left, no one has stepped up to provide the subject material structure that I once provided, which provided some of the impetus behind the creation of the OT forum. I know my past here is somewhat sordid, but I believe even Mel will agree that I did provide quite a bit of legitimate, though not sniping specific, subject material to discuss. No one else has done so as a matter of course, and OT simply devolved into stupid threads and petty arguments. These things are NOT necessary on this type of forum.
But the important thing here is: the OT section was given to this forum provisionally. Those provisions were no longer being met as originally agreed upon. I suggested simply doing away with the liberal agent provocateurs, but the mods decided to be done with the issue altogether, and revoke the privilege of the OT forum. Believe it or not, I agree with and support that decision (like it matters, haha). If nobody is going to step up and provide a semblance of structure and social moderation, and instead everyone is party to a bunch of grab-a*s games, then the Off-Topic forum serves no purpose here on SC, which was originally intended to be a professional resource.
Mind you, very, very few of you are professionals, or even amateur shooting competitors. If you don't like that, and you can't cope with the fact that SC is supposed to be for professionals, then click "Log out" there in the upper right hand corner and go find another forum....There's thousands of them, and plenty of them embrace people who talk out of their lane. But no one has the right to bend SC to suit their wants. SC is SC. Take it or leave it.
Even though I'm no longer active, I support the mods' decision. I have spoken with a couple of them about some possible alternatives to operating the OT forum, and I would be happy to help further in any way, insofar as I am able or may be accepted to. Whether I like it or not, I have a vested interest in the success of this forum.
Until the "final solution" comes down the pipe, in my typical straight forwardness I say: get over it. I'd think putting up with a guy who pretends to be a cat is enough psychotic, or at least socially retarded, shenanigans for one forum.
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 483 Location: Columbia, MO
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:12 am Post subject:
Many times there were pertinent political discussions regarding current events, that started off on topic, as an FYI for members. I've learned about several issues through this website, resulting in my emailing appropriate government representatives, to express my position to them. When used in this manner, I think the political natured discussions on Off Topic were useful.
The problem is, some people cannot accept dissenting opinions and opposing viewpoints, and rather than discuss the topics or issues presented, it becomes a free-for-all hijacking of the thread. I've only been on this sight for two years, and started from not owning a single firearm, not knowing what a mil-dot was, and had never heard of a remington 700. Today, I hit 2 inch groups at 100 yards with a sporter barreled, tupperware-stocked Remington 700 in 30-06 (and getting better). I took forum advice and learned to shoot on a .22 first, eventually working out to 100 yards (several thousand rounds) and also have recruited 6/20 of my co-workers into shooting as well, with frequent trips to the local 100 yard range.
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but what I have learned here is incredible, and I learn more every day (and sometimes can pass on what I learned). I would hate to see that opportunity sullied for other prospective new members who may log in, see the OT forums getting out of hand, think this is just another bunch of type-a personality, internet know-it-alls, and leave.
I suggest if restoring the Off Topic thread, stickey the Off Topic code of coduct (simplified, itemized by number) at the top. Political/Religous discussions COULD be allowed but realistically, there are other websites and forums out there for those specific discussions. For the remainder of the thread... NO WARNINGS - if someone violates the code of conduct (name calling, mocking, harassing, thread hi-jacking, just plain mean and spiteful, etc) they receive a PM indicating which item(s) they violated (by number), and they are locked from posting in all Off Topic forums (though can still read, if they so choose). If this is too much of a burden for the moderators, then yes, eliminate the Off Topic forum as it existed in the past, to keep this website the wonderful resource that it is while allowing the mods to retain their sanity.
To me, 2nd Amendment issues are very much "ON Topic" for this website. However, I can't say how many times I've seen posts (however well-intentioned) referencing "new" legislation going through congress - HR 2666 for example - 2 years after it died in committee.
Perhaps have a stickied 2nd Amendment thread in the MISC forum, if the Off Topic section is nuked, that requires moderator validation of posts before it becomes visible (that, or only mods can post/update, following submission via pm to them). Rules would simply be that a link to the legislation, votes, news story, article, updates on bills/articles, are all that is included, to keep people abreast of information and let them form their own opinions on the issue (ie, which members of the house or senate, or state gov't, voted for or against a certain piece of legislation, for or against, and that's all). That, or simply link to the NRA-ILA website http://nraila.org from here and call it a day.
I do like the off-colour jokes... "Oh no sir! I'm not a real Marine, I'm just wearing his hat!" <wink>
And thank you again Mele/Mods for the effort you put in here. _________________ "This is nuclear power, it's not rocket science"
"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
Perhaps have a stickied 2nd Amendment thread in the MISC forum, if the Off Topic section is nuked, that requires moderator validation of posts before it becomes visible (that, or only mods can post/update, following submission via pm to them). Rules would simply be that a link to the legislation, votes, news story, article, updates on bills/articles, are all that is included, to keep people abreast of information and let them form their own opinions on the issue (ie, which members of the house or senate, or state gov't, voted for or against a certain piece of legislation, for or against, and that's all). That, or simply link to the NRA-ILA website http://nraila.org from here and call it a day.
Not a bad idea. If political discussion here is getting out of hand, putting a big strain on the mods and admin, just reference them to a 2A political based site.
You could start an off-topic thread where the mods can post current events similar to what Recoil did here years ago, and all discussion can be handled on a 2A site, with it's own crew of mods and admin. This will keep the image and additional stress off of Mel and his site, and still allow members here to stay informed on current 2A and political happenings. Just sticky a list of 2A websites where these discussions can be handled. _________________ Moose
Joined: 13 May 2009 Posts: 988 Location: San Diego, CA
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:46 am Post subject:
So we’ve heard what some want this place to be. Something that it was at the beginning and for it to be stuck at that place. To not change, evolve or expand into something more and better than its original conception - if what I’ve read thus far is accurate. Not that there was anything wrong with it. There’s nothing wrong with making this site purely a precision shooting site. Nothing wrong with welcoming, in so much as an exclusive club is welcoming, only members who fit a precise and constrictive definition. There are thousands of clubs and sites like that and this one would be one more drop in that particular ocean.
The Sniper Central that I came across was when it was moderated not with a censors knife but with the expectation that whatever the opinion, the manner in which it was voiced would be adult and mature. The points argued would be with truth and facts and not name calling, rolling eyes and such. That was a great Sniper Central. It was fun, it was collaborative, it was the best of clubs because it didn’t demand that we all echo each other’s thoughts verbatim, but rather we each brought our own voice and spoke honestly. Or else it was the ban-stick.
The Off Topic section fulfilled perhaps, and ironically, an unintended but crucial role. It gave shooting noobs a place to gain a toe-hold whilst they learned the ropes of shooting, reloading, slings, rings, scopes and dope. It gave me, a noob, the chance to understand perhaps for the first time, exactly what the men and women who wear the uniforms of their countries go through, why they do it and why they are able to carry on doing it. It made me say ‘Thanks for your service’ to a soldier in Phoenix Airport with some idea of what that service really costs.
The Off Topic section served as a great example of just how wrong and crass those who choose to stereotype gun owners are. It served as evidence that availing ourselves to the rights of the 2nd Amendment does not make us intolerant, paranoid, backward people. Intolerant, backward people do not debate, do not ask questions, do not seek to use legislation and the voting process to preserve and protect their constitutional rights. They don’t go onto a forum and say, ‘my family member is sick, please pray for him/her/us’ and to have then many members saying ‘you’re in my prayers/best wishes/all the best’.
If we make Sniper Central what it was at the beginning, it’ll still be an awesome site with probably the best of the best on it. I’ll still be here, reading it at least if not posting, but it’ll have lost an opportunity to be something of a bridge builder into the general population. Word spreads, good news carries like wild fire. I’ve told a lot of people about this place, I’ve gotten at least two others interested in fire arms and long range shooting.
Being tolerant, being respectful, being thoughtful and openminded is not weak and nor is it the bastion of liberals or commies. It’s being grown up. If SC decides that Off Topic is so subversive and dangerous to shooting that it can’t handle reasoned debate then it has more issues to deal with than a couple of guys who post in the Off Topic section.
Cheers _________________ "Never try to change anyone's mind about religion, politics, baseball or redheads." Peter H. Capstick
I don't consider removing the OT section a step backwards at all. In fact, I have to applaud the owner/admin, because they're cleaning the site up and returning it to it's better, former state. This site's primary purpose is to share knowledge about long range precision shooting, yet many members lately were getting the most of their post count in the OT section. The OT section has been the source of trolls and the reason for ban stick swing for quite a while now, and the admin decided to make their jobs a little easier, and clean the place up. Now we won't have the name calling, the jabs at other members, the irrelevant bs and sucker punches injected into political discussions, trolls, or people who just love dissenting to account for a large portion of the site's discussion. It also removes the appearance that SC is endorsing one political or social position or another.
There's pleny of other 2A related political sites, if one feels the need to discuss political issues. That's their sole purpose, and talking about the economy, firearm regulations, healthcare, or whatever isn't considered "off topic" at those places. _________________ Moose
Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 1248 Location: McKinney, TX
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject:
There were some topics that didn't go bad, such as the funny pic thread. However, this is a sniper related site and as such doesn't need an OT section. There maybe more people here that never served as snipers, yet are interested in the craft of sniping. This will still be and excellent site with lots of information to be learned here. I don't see the need anymore for a OT section.
I say we lock this thread and move on. Adapt and overcome. JMO
Joined: 24 Aug 2008 Posts: 480 Location: El Paso, Tx
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:53 pm Post subject:
I stopped checking out the OT thread very much due to a large amount of BS that was being posted there. Some of which would annoy me a bit so i just stopped going there to avoid it all together. Some things were nice about it like some general off topic advice on a life situation that someone else here might have some good knowledge on that would help a younger person from possibly making the wrong decision.
Maybe have the thread completely hidden except to either and or higher post count members (100-500ish) or those that pay for the actual membership or both so that when a selected member does get to that amount its like a surprise happy birthday type of thing... but thats just my weird idea lol. _________________ Chris
Disclaimer: The views expressed herein are the views of MYSELF and should not be taken as the views of the agency for whom I work for!
Joined: 21 Mar 2005 Posts: 1908 Location: People's Republic of Pineland
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject:
While I feel that religous and political topics could be productive, the cold, hard fact is that people just cannot seem to conduct themselves properly while discussing these two topics. That is a shame, as there is much to learn from other's point of view.
It seems to me that threads about religon and politics have caused 99% of the problems in the Off Topic section. I think that banning these two topics will take away 99% of the problem.
I would like to see the Off Topic section come back. Either way, I'm confident that the mods and admin with do what's best for the site.
Well, I remember all too clearly one thread I started which was rapidly hijacked, and turned into something very ugly. I begged that it be deleted...when the mods caught wind of how far South things had gone, thankfully they deleted it. Soooooooooooo..........given how the OT section has gone, I am not surprised to see it go. But there has been some great stuff as well. It would be nice to see a return. I too, would favor a political (2nd ammendment exception) and religious ban in this section though. Several of you have more than valid points: This is a site devoted to precision shooting, and the OT section does give all of us a little more insight into personalties, BUT a members political or religious ideals are a personal matter and I don't feel need to be "shared with the group". _________________ Remington 700 VTR .308
Millett TRS-1
Harris and Karsten enhancments
*I love my VTR, couldn't ask more from a hunting rifle*
Honestly I'm sad to see it gone, but happy in the same mind.
Wehn started reading post it was a good 2 years befor i ever posted my first post with a paid member ship. I didn't pay the fee to read about everyones gripes about whats happing in the world i paid to read about poeples shooting, and what they learned. Granted i came into the site with alot of shooting time under my belt but the old saying can't teach a old dog new tricks is far over used. I have learned alot. Granted th OT area was fun in its ways. For quite awhile i quite even looking in there for some of the same reasons other memebers have mentioned. I would like to see it come back if I say IF the OT section could be Off Topic about shooting/snippin/marksmenship and in general what Sniper Central used to be 4 years ago. Like i said above. It would be nice but we do have the Misc. section for misc. rifle,stocks,optics and anything else dealing with shooting,sniping,marksmenship. The SOP has its perpose. If we are just looking to read and tell jokes or funny pics. Then the mods i think could figure something out just for that.
I'm not going to comment on the main two reasons the OT got pulled. Thats not why i visit SC. If Mel and the mods bring it back as just paid member area i feel it will float along for awhile, then it may just fall back to where an how it was befor.
So i'm gonna leave it up to Mel. and mods to figure out what and how they want to hande it. I know Mel said keep posting they want to see what we all have to say. But Its Mels site an he is the Final say of what really happens.
I feel He will make the right choice.
Again we should all thank Mel for starting a site we can all learn from and taken the time he and others put into giving us what he has.
Joined: 30 Aug 2009 Posts: 380 Location: NW Montana
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject:
monteboy84 wrote:
Be careful in what assumptions you make here, if it was simply a matter of a defined problem with a few individuals, we'd be swinging for the fence with the old ban-stick. That is not the case. As mentioned, the driving factor ahead of all others, is that the OT forum has been detracting greatly from the other areas of the site.
-matt
There are clearly conflicting views as to why OT was closed. Either we need further clarification or somebody should get off their bandwagon.
John _________________ "Those who do not study history are destined to repeat it."
"Pray for me cause I have lost my faith in holy wars... Will I learn what's truly sacred?
Will I redeem my soul? Will truth set me free?" - Sharon den Adel
I'm a big fan of not using this thread as an example of everything that went wrong in the Off Topic forum. The OT is done, and it looks like this thread is too. _________________ Moose
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 287 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:24 am Post subject:
lol i just saw this and am extremely relieved. i thought i was in trouble because the day after i posted soemthing about the world series, the forum disappeared. i hope it can make a comeback _________________ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not shoot,
The courage to shoot the things I can,
and the wisdom to hide the bodies.
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